Discussion:Trentin-Sudtirôl

Alt Adis o Sud Tirôl

Jo o metarès come vôs principâl la forme Trentin-Sud Tirôl parcè che e je che mi somee la plui doprade (par esempli tal sît dal MINUD). --Tocaibon 15 di Avr 2007 a lis 14:17 (UTC)

Dulà si cjate il non tal sît? --Tuky80 15 di Avr 2007 a lis 21:13 (UTC)

sud tirôl si cjate doprât sedi de provincie di Udin (Minorancis lenghistichis intal stât talian) sedi de (region)

lu ai cjatât ancje di cualchi altri bande

[1] [2] [3]

Dutcâs o pensi che al sedi ben meti ancje i reindrecjaments di Tirôl dal sud, e di alt Adis che a son ancje doprâts. --Tocaibon 16 di Avr 2007 a lis 13:12 (UTC)

Ancje jo o soi par meti Trentin-Sud Tirôl come vôs principâl e lis altris come re-indreçaments--Klenje 16 di Avr 2007 a lis 19:26 (UTC)

Is it such a big deal for you to have both Alt Adis and Sud Tirôl?

I thing than all this is a misunderstanding!

We simply use the friulian name of the region. Note that the english wiki use italian and german name, so does the italian costitution this mean that in italian the name is alto adige and in german is süd tirol. But in friulian? The name is Tirôl that's all.

Please note that this is not a german name but a friulian name, and we don't say anything against the german-speakers or the italian-speakers of the sud tirôl.

The name Bolzan (Italie) that you use it is problematic in friulian wikipedia becouse there are two friulian villages called Bolzan and they are in italy too.... --Tocaibon 1 di Lui 2007 a lis 21:36 (UTC)

The page really should be at both Trentin-Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl. Both Alt Adis and Sud Tirôl are used. What is the harm in putting both? [4]

With a full application of the model you propose, we should even friulanizise (one of the several possible examples) the two Irish and English names of the state Eire/Ireland (?????).

It seems to me that a good deal of the people who cares SO MUCH about the name put on the page thinks that we have preferences for the German version or that we are neo-nationalists; it isn't so. I hope this is all a misunderstanding....

Illister - 10 di Lui alis 23.10

Look, I personally have no preference, they are both nice interesting names. However, you have chosen to move Trentin-Alt Adis to Trentin-Sud Tirôl, but either one is valid, so how do you make your decision that one is more valid than the other? You obviously cared enough to make the change from one to the other, no? You certainly must have some good reason, but also others may have a good reason to use Alt Adis. You don't need to be defensive, I think that by using Trentin-Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl one would very nicely get both names, and it reflects the official name of the region: Trentino Alto Adige/Südtirol. You can't compare this to Ireland, you must know there are special circumstances when it comes to BZ. Thank you for the discussion. :-)

I think the reason the most of us (here in Friulian wikipedia) doesn't understand your preference is right what you said: I think that by using Trentin-Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl one would very nicely get both names, and it reflects the official name of the region: Trentino Alto Adige/Südtirol. ----> FRIULIAN hasn't to reflect the official ITALIAN name of the region (is it some sort of parrot?), because what is official in Italian isn't necessarily official in other foreign languages: as an example, even in Catalan wikipedia the name of the region is Trentino-Tirol del Sud, in German wikipedia is Trentino-Südtirol or in the Croatian one is Trentino-Južni Tirol. And why this? Because these cultures don't have the same cultural perception of the region the major part of Italians or the people who live in Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol have. I think this also applies to the Friulian minority. Why do you want us to have a cultural scheme we probably never had? We only have such a scheme when we think or write in Italian language (You know, the nature of Friulian people is quite often dual: Friulian/Italian). But Friulian language and cultural schemes aren't the same as the Italian ones.

I too believed that Trentin-Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl would have been a good compromise at the very beginning (I tried to propose it to the administrators), but then I discussed the matter with some of them and came up to the conclusions I tried to expose you. Furthermore there was more on-line material confirming Sud Tirôl than Alt Adis. This is why I think that your reasons aren't strong enough. Even the solution on the English wikipedia you mention isn't, in the end, an English-based solution, but an Italian-based solution.

(I must admit that this discussion is quite interesting! :-) In case you didn't notice, see the observation I already made on my discussion page!.... Even if some some of them - e.g. quotations - don't apply anymore!)

Illister - 11 di Lui alis 19.14

Counter example

We chose this solution based on the general use. Still we chose an official form. But what would you say of the Wikipedia in Spanish es:La Coruña where they chose a name which doesn't even exist anymore, since the only official name is the Galician one ( a Coruña)? They justified this with the traditional use in Spanish. Note that we are not denying that the form Alt Adis does exist. But it's less used--Klenje 15 di Lui 2007 a lis 11:17 (UTC)

I'd say that it is quite difficult to say it is less used. What is it.. Sud Tirôl 55%, Alt Adis 45%. To be fair, I think the people who had the ideas to use Trentin-Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl are the most correct, because it is a compromise. It is not up to us here to decide what is official in this language. Also, I don't see how Sud Tirôl has a strong history in Friulian, considering that it is an invention of recent decades. In fact, Trentin is the Sud of Tirôl.

Well, If I remember correctly Trentin is Welsch Tirol in German. I may agree that Sud Tirôl is a recent invention. But the region Tirôl is historic. While the 'Alt Adis' is another recent invention. I classify it under the inventations by Italian nationalism like 'Venezia Giulia'. If you can prove that this term was used before 1800, I'm willing to change my mind --Klenje 13 di Avo 2007 a lis 08:50 (UTC)

That is like asking someone to prove that the term Alto Po, Alto Adige, Alto Isarco, etc. are recent inventions? That does not make sense. For example, there will always be a "Alto Adige" as long as there is a river still flowing, but Tirol is just an old name for a now extinct County of Tirol. Main point, this debate can go for ever. Why not use Trentin-Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl. It is very simple, isn't it? There is plenty of Friulian documents that show also Trentin-Alt Adis. Trentin is called Welsch Tirol, but it is also the Sud of Tirol. This is obvious by looking a map of the old Tirol. BZ is in the middle! :))) It is very funny in the end.

Here you can read the translation of the italian word altoatesino in the most updated friulian-italian dictionary (you can find it on-line here):

  altoatesino adi., s.m.
  adi. [DA] (dal Sud Tirôl) sudtirolês, tirolês:
  la gastronomia tipica altoatesina, la gastronomie 
  tipiche tirolese; le valli ladine altoatesine, lis
  valadis ladinis tirolesis SIN. IT. atesino, sudtirolese 
  SIN. FR. sudtirolês, tirolês | 
  (adi., s.m., che, cui che al è nassût o che al è 
  a stâ in Sud Tirôl) sudtirolês:
  un professore altoatesino, un professôr sudtirolês 
  SIN. FR. sudtirolês, tirolês 

So we think that the form Sud Tirôl it's the main one. Anyway in the article it's clearly write:

  La part dal Sud Tirôl e ven par furlan ancje clamade Alt Adis.

--Tocaibon 13 di Avo 2007 a lis 15:12 (UTC)

Note

Considerât che chest articul al à causât tantis cuistions, vulevi dome precisâ che vuei (15 di Lui) o ai fat cualchi gambiament, ma dome tal tentatîf di contentâ plui int pussibil.

Illister - 15 di Lui a lis 19.49

Trentin-Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl

What is the big difficulty to locate the page at a page that shows both names? It is a few extra characters of space on a hard disk. It makes it unnecessary for a few people on Wikipedia to choose which name is "correct". There was always the river Adis, there was once the County of Tirôl. How do you choose the POV between Alt and Sud?? Just put both like others have said also.

Please note that this is the Friulian version of the wikipedia. We are talking and writing in friulian and this is not a translation (a Bablefish translation :-) ) of english wikipedia in friulian. Others big wikipedias like the french, the italian, the german and the spanisch one, don't use the form used in english wikipedia.

Our language is not completely standardized and in some case, (for example some geographical names), you can find more versions of the same name. In this case our policy is, if it is possible, to use the principal form for the name of the article and to use the other forms as redirect page.

This happened in many cases for example Drau and Drave, Belgjo and Belgjiche and so on. Then in the article we say that there is another form of the name. Infact if you use the search function (ricercje) and type the lesser used form you can find the article. We don't use new form of names if the name exist. Trentin Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl is a new form of name becouse there are 3 used forms Trentin-Alt Adis, Trentin-Sud Tirôl and Trentin-Tirôl dal Sud. Since this discussion started, I payed a lot of attention every time I found this name in the press and in the media (radio). Please note that the form Trentin-Sud Tirôl is the widely used one and this name it also used in the Grant Dizionari Bilenguâl (the most updated friulian dictionay of standardized friulian).

Please note that the use of a new form of a name instead of an existing one is an political linguistic act. This is a very controversial argument in friulian language. There are some agencies like ARLEF (OLF) or some cultural organisations like the Società Filologica Friulana that do this kind of things. The Wikipedia can not do this kind of things becouse of the POV policy!! --Tocaibon 14 di Avo 2007 a lis 09:05 (UTC)

I would still say Trentin Alt Adis/Sud Tirôl or Trentin Alt Adis/Tirôl dal Sud is a special case that should be considered. : /